Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we saw riots in Kholinar and suspicion in Narak. This week, war has devastated Jah Keved, and we join Taravangian there for the continuance of his strategy.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Interlude 14: Taravangian
Point of View: Taravangian
Setting: Vedenar
Symbology: Double Eye of the Almighty, Palah, Jezrien
IN WHICH an aging king awakens and is tested; Vedenar is a heap of rubble and ash; exhausted soldiers cheer the man who engineered the ruin of their nation; an assassin is waiting; soothing lies and reiterated commands send him on his way; speculation and searching ensue; a dying king is visited; a relationship is identified, and an heir designated; a son must kill his father; grief and guilt accumulate.
Quote of the Week
By the light of spheres, Taravangian picked through the tome, poring over translations of his own words written in a language he had invented and then forgotten. Answers. He needed answers.
“Did ever I tell you, Adro, what I asked for?” he whispered as he read.
“Yes.”
He was barely listening. “Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.”
I don’t even know what to say about this. It makes me sad. It makes me angry—though whether at the Nightwatcher or at Taravangian, I’m not sure.
Commentary
This is a long, long chapter, and it is chock-full of information. Not all of it is very nice.
Some trivial notes to start with:
Mrall, Taravangian’s advisor, is a Thaylen with shaved head and eyebrows. The similarity of names and non-traditional hair-styling make me wonder if he is associated with Mraize in ways other than country of origin. Clearly, we’re supposed to make the connection, but we’re left wondering if it’s just world-building, or if there’s something Significant about it.
More to the point, though, what is it about Mrall that gives him the right to demand that Taravangian undergo his morning testing before breakfast? I can see where it’s his duty, but why the phrasing of “It is his right to demand this”? I suppose it could be as simple as “I gave him the job of deciding what I’m qualified to do, so he has a right to demand that I test as soon as I wake.” And that would probably be reasonable… but this is Sanderson, and I don’t trust the simple and reasonable explanation for anything about a character as mysterious as Taravangian.
Speaking of which, there sure seem to be a lot of people who know all about the diagram, his varying intelligence, and his restrictions. Advisors, stormwardens, sailors, soldiers…
We got a lot of answers in this Interlude—more than we had reason to expect, for only the second book of the series. We know where Taravangian is getting his plans and marching orders on a daily basis: from the Diagram he wrote on his most brilliant day, as a “gift” from the Nightwatcher. We know that he’s fully aware of the return of the Radiants, and that Jasnah was a Surgebinder. We know that a great deal of his reputation for compassion is based on a façade; although we learned of that to some extent in TWoK, it’s made eminently clear that “being seen as compassionate” is part of his directive. And we now know that he’s maneuvering to unite all of Roshar under his own direction. One thing we don’t know, though, is how long this has been going on, or whether he confided in Gavilar as much as Gavilar in him. I suppose it’s possible that Gavilar’s revelations and assassination were what sent Taravangian to seek the Nightwatcher… I sure would like to know.
The whole thing is disturbing, though. Emotion without intellect, genius without empathy. Either one is a recipe for disaster in the ruler of a nation. The saving grace would be that on most days, he’s relatively balanced. The counter, which makes it less “saving” than it could be, is that no matter what, he’s unequivocally dedicated to carrying out the plan he made when he was super-duper brilliant… and had absolutely no compassion. This worries me.
Human intelligence is all well and good, but what’s going on here reminds me, first, of Asimov’s Foundation series—the entire course of the human race could be determined mathematically… until one odd, unpredictable mutation threw everything out of alignment. I don’t know where this is going, but all the red flags are waving. Taravangian flat-out admits that the only thing he “worships,” the only object of faith for him, is his own super-brilliant self and the things he wrote on that one day. The concern is, of course, compounded by stuff like this:
Hopefully, Moelach hadn’t decided to slumber again. The Death Rattles had, so far, offered them the best way that they’d found to augment the Diagram.
If Moelach is indeed another of the Unmade (and we have no other category he fits), am I the only one who finds it worrisome that Taravangian’s hope to “save humankind” is being guided by a Splinter of Odium?
Stormwatch
This Interlude takes place sometime prior to the last highstorm before the Weeping, though the exact date is not clear.
Sprenspotting
There don’t seem to be any of the normal spren bobbling around here—or rather, no one bothers to note them—but there is one abnormal one mentioned. Or maybe two.
In reference to Nergaoul, whom they (correctly, per WoB) assume to be responsible for the Thrill, Taravangian instructs Adrotagia not to spend too much effort trying to find him/it:
“I’m not sure what we would even do if we found the thing.” An ancient, evil spren was not something he had the resources to tackle. Not yet at least.
Nergaoul is an Unmade, and Taravangian calls it “an ancient, evil spren.” My researches tell me that Brandon has confirmed that the Unmade are Splinters of Odium; I guess if they go back to the time of the Desolations, that would easily be old enough to qualify as “ancient.”
The next question is whether Moelach fits the same description. Brandon has not confirmed this to the best of my knowledge, but as working theories go, I think it’s reasonably strong. Moelach is referenced several times, being the instigator of the “death rattles” Taravangian uses to correct his Diagram-directed course. ::shudder:: See above discussion…
Heraldic Symbolism
At first I was surprised that Vedel wasn’t on this chapter’s arch, with all the healers out doing their thing, and Taravangian as their king. After rereading the chapter, I decided that Palah and Jezrien make more sense, though. One angle would be to say Jezrien represents the King, while Palah is his wise advisor Adrotagia. Another would be to say that both are for Taravangian, with Palah representing his raw intellect and Jezrien his kingship.
Just Sayin’
“Mrall could loom over a mountain and intimidate the wind itself.” That makes me giggle a bit. I also like “favored of the winds” for someone extraordinarily lucky. Both are so very Rosharan.
There is, of course, much more that could be said about this chapter, but I’ll leave it for y’all to bring out in the comments. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when we start into Part Five.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She’s currently hip-deep in planning for her first JordanCon, and is looking forward to seeing some of you there. StormCellar meet-up on Friday night!
I think Taravangian was lying to Szeth when Taravanagian implicitly or explicitly I cannot remember which) to Szeth that Kaladin must have the unaccounted for Honorblade. I believed that Taravanagian knew that the person that Szeth was talking about could Surgebind. Taravanagian knew that to keep controlling Szeth, he had to convince Szeth to believe that the Knights Radiants had not returned. If Kaladin had a Honorblade, then Taravanagian could “argue” to Szeth that it was the Honorblade that gave Kaladin his abilitiy to surgebind.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
I get the feeling that Taravangian has it backwards, and that his ‘capacity to save humankind’ will depend on a day when he is super compassionate, instead of the day of his supposed genius.
I had a similar mix of feelings when I found out what Taravangian asked the Nightwatcher for. Taravangian’s distribution of days just makes logical sense given how statistical curves work but I also can’t help but feel like the fact that he’s “average” most of the time is the point of the NIghtwatcher’s gift. That when he is “average” he has the capacity to save humanity. That when he is too smart he is too separated from humanity really know what humanity is to save it and when he’s on the other side of the spectrum, he’s too immersed in the emotional and primal self to look at the situation beyond a single person.That why he needs is that average state to both know what is emotionally right to do and what is logically right to do.
I can’t help but feel like the fact the he’s trying to follow the self that created the diagram is going to be mistake but at the same time I can see why he would do so. Who he was when he created the Diagram actually created a plan of action and it sounded like he needed to find a plan of action.
I wonder when the Diagram was created. I have a feeling that it was created after Gavilar’s death because it talks about Dalinar as the Blackthorn being a possible ally but it doesn’t talk about the King of Althekar, I feel like it would if Gavilar was alive at the inception of the diagram because he’s the one who holds Dalinar’s absolute loyalty. I think it doesn’t. I’m going to have to find where someone has collected those Diagram passages together and read that. I’m sure someone done it already….
#1 – yes, I’m sure he knew he was lying to Szeth.
#2 – That would be very Sandersonesque.
#3 – I think it’s not that he follows the Diagram he created because it’s a plan, as much as he craves the understanding. That one day it all made sense. All the crazy, inexplicable aspects of the world became comprehensible, the pieces all fit together. He knew what the world needed, and that allowed him to make a plan. That would be a powerful thing.
@2 – I *like* that theory. A lot. It would be an interesting inversion of Taravangian’s expectations.
As to following the Diagram – <sarcasm> Sure, let’s follow a plan that was concocted by someone completely bereft of compassion, and guided by a Splinter of Odium. I see no way that can possibly go wrong </sarcasm>
Taravagian’s cycle reminds me of Chameleon in Xanth, although it is less regular.
If Taravangian can’t make decisions when he is too smart, why doesn’t it occur to him that the Diagram has the same problem?
I also think that compassion is the capacity and intelligence the curse.
@2: Since both compassion and intelligence are gifts from Nightwatcher, I suspect that both will be necessary. Intelligence to create and dumb-down the Diagram so the less intelligent and more compassionate Taravangian can interpret it and decide what to act on and what not to.
It would have been really smart of Taravangian to write a “Diagram for Dummies” before losing his ability to comprehend it.
I subscribe to the notion that a balancing act of his compassion and intelligence comprise his capacity to save humankind. The gifts (plural) from the Nightwatcher could be super intelligence and super compassion, and the curse could be that ne’er the twain shall meet. Maybe he has yet to realize that the long game he needs to play is to attempt to predict his stupidest, yet most compassionate day and set up a situation in which one critical, make-or-break decision (informed by the Diagram) needs to take place on that day. Perhaps he needs to use his balanced days to somehow link these extreme outliers.
Edit: @kefka Hehe, I guess you beat me to it. I started writing something up about 20 minutes ago and was spirited away for a bit, so I didn’t see your post until I hit submit.
@2: Tangentially related, I’ve always like the theory that Taravangian literally asked for what he stated in this chapter. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind” He’s assuming that he asked for the same thing, only worded differently. However, it is technically possible to save humankind without stopping what is coming. Its possible that his boon and curse were each solutions to his two requests. Knowledge to stop what is coming (the diagram). Empathy to save humankind.
On the subject of the thrill. The gem szeth gets from gavilar in the prologue of WoKs is supposed hidden in Veden. If this holds the spren, that explains why the thrill has gotten weaker for the Alethi on the plains and why its stronger here. But that could also be a misdirect.
@8 Haha! Great minds think alike!
Oh, and I guess I should also say that its also very possible that the knowledge from the diagram is leading him to stop what is coming while also destroying humankind.
#9 – Oh, now that’s an interesting idea. It depends on what Taravangian means by “stop what is coming”. If he means the Desolation then your theory is very possible. If, however “what is coming” refers just to the destruction of humankind then there’s no conflict between his requests. It looks like to me that his Diagram doesn’t seem to be working to prevent the Desolation, but instead to prevent anything that would interfere with his control. He wouldn’t oppose the Radiants if he controlled them.
@9/11 Matthew and @12 Nick31
The vagueness of the phrase “stop what’s coming” is a big red flag. From the little we know about the Nightwatcher and her cleverness in distributing boons and curses, this is a big be-careful-what-you-wish-for situation. Something tells me Taravangian’s confidence that he is the one to stop this turns him into a villain himself.
In previous chapters, we’ve discussed the relationship between intelligence and compassion as a theme running throughout the book. Taravangian is just the most visible example.
How responsible is the Nightwatcher in all of this? The breadth of her requests varies from small things (someone asked for a length of good cloth to feed his family) to large, world-changing gifts like Taravangian’s. If the Nightwatcher even had suspicions about Taravangian’s plans, it makes her look like an amoral actor without regard for the consequences of her gifts. It also makes me wonder if she can refuse to grant boons or try to mitigate the damage with her curses.
I always found the cliché of “saving humanity at the cost of ones humanity” grating and unrealistic. Sure, it makes great reading. But in a real world I find myself agreeing with Red vs. Blue. Quote (aprox): “When faced with extinction, any alternative is preferable.”
So here, Taravingian does what he knows will save them. It’s entirely possible that the Radiants will stop Odium. But I think most people would not gamble with the fate of an entire species. If the Diagram is 100% guaranteed to save “mankind” and the Radiants have only 80-90% chance, how many would risk it? Sure, he’ll have to do some amoral things and a lot of people will suffer and die, but isn’t that better than ALL people dying? And maybe even Odium being released in the Cosmere.
Of course, it’s fantasy book and hopefully, like most Sanderson books the good guys will win and us as the readers know that. It’s not real for us. But I think that if it was this humanity that is about to go extinct a lot more of us would support the Diagram.
It can also be considered a question of religion in a way. Cultivation is real, it concerns growth and the Nightwatcher seems to deal in sciences. Honor is the Almighty, clearly based on hope and faith. So you have the faith in the Radiants vs the concrete “scientific” proof of the Diagram.
Personally I enjoy this a lot more when it’s shades of grey rather then everybody else except our heroes being pure evil.
@13 Halien
Actually, this is a good point. I could be 100% misremembering this, but isn’t there discussion of the nightwatcher boons somewhere? Like she doesn’t twist your words, you ask for something and then she gives you what she thinks you deserve? What is the nightwatcher’s goal here?
@13 @15 Way of Kings, I-7 Baxil:
Does the Nightwatcher sucker punch people with her boons like a particularly unfriendly and literal Djinn? Or are her boons reliable and just sucker punch with the curse? Do we know yet?
@16 Almost the answer, but there’s still wiggle room in “what she feels you deserve.” If I ask for a sandwich does that mean she can decide I deserve a pizza or does it just determine what kind or sandwich or whatever?
@15 Matthew
I don’t think you’re misremembering. I recall seeing that line too and thinking it affords her a lot of wiggle room. If she’s free to use her judgment here, it just leads to more questions about what she hopes to accomplish. If her relationship to Cultivation is analogous to the Stormfather and Honor, it could give us some insight into the other Shard’s role in the series.
@14 VladZ
I think the twist could also turn out to be that ‘what Taravangian knows will save them’ turns out to be unreliable information. Sanderson played with a similar idea in Mistborn, so I think it’s a possibility here.
Taravangian is being setup as the anti-Radiant, a destination-at-any-cost type of guy. There’s an epigraph (I think it’s a death rattle) in WoK that I think describes him pretty well, “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.” His connection to Moelach makes me think he may be a target of manipulation here. If Taravangian can build a diagram of probabilities based on what he knows, what can a Shard and its splinters do with thier superhuman powers?
@5 jeremyguebert
Before we criticize Taravangian’s plan too harshly, we should consider that Team Good Guy has:
1. Failed to stop the Everstorm
2. Failed to warn any nation, even Alethkar, of the parshmen threat before they actually turned into Voidbringers
3. Exactly four Knights Radiant, including a novice who only recently discovered his powers
4. Absolutely no long-term plan. However unreliable the Diagram might be, at least Taravangian has some understanding of his enemy and an idea for how to defeat him.
Now, all of this is fairly typical for Act II of a work of fiction, especially a fantasy novel. If the protagonists got everything right in Act I, there wouldn’t be much of a continuing story. But if we weren’t aware that this was a work of fiction, with an inherent bias towards a happy resolution, I think we might be placing our bets on the dreadful embodiment of hatred with a proven track record of killing gods.
The only real way to be confident at this point is to break the fourth wall and assume that the author won’t just kill everyone on Roshar. Given that Odium’s army makes up a substantial proportion of the planet’s labor force, and that they’ll be in an excellent position to murder human farmers when they become Voidbringers, the smart money would be on most people starving to death outside the major cities while Odium’s armies surround and assault the areas that can produce food through Soulcasting.
I do wonder if Taravangian has a plan for dealing with the parshmen transformation. If he is aware of it, he could have already taken measures to protect Kharbanth and Jah Keved from the threat. Our Heroes have not, and thousands of Alethi peasants are about to pay for their lack of preparation.
It would be very interesting if Taravangian ended up saving the world, though I don’t think it will happen. He is definitely not the hero of this work. However, he is not any less qualified to save the world than our well-meaning but entirely unprepared Radiants.
@19 dptullos
I am interested to see how the time the KR are taking to get off the ground impacts Taravangian’s plan. Did he predict it taking that long for the knights to discover their powers, train, find Urithiru, and find some way to become effective?
So far, I don’t see that Taravangian’s plan has been any better for humanity or Roshar than Odium’s. His end goals may be different, but this man has assassinated heads of state, provoked a civil war in one of the largest kingdoms on the continent, and treated the lives of hospital patients like currency to be traded for hints. These actions don’t convince me that his path is better than the alternative. The damage he’s causing only weakens the people and states he claims to protect.
Mistborn shows that Sanderson is comfortable writing a very high level of destruction in the battles for the fates of his worlds. I don’t think everyone will die, but the cost will be high. It’s hinted that historical Desolations carried very high tolls and reset human technological development to early stages.
There is no shortage of characters in these books with a messianic complex. Taravangian joins Dalinar and Kaladin plus Jasnah, Shallan, and, even, Hoid (although the latter appears to be more interested in saving the cosmere rather than Roshar). However, the test of the moral stature of these people with great ambitions is the methods that they are prepared to use to further such ambitions. Dalinar works out of a formal moral code (Nohadon’s book); Kaladin uses his own sense of justice, empathy, and morality’ Shallan is willing to bend the rules but stays away from actual evil. Taravangian knows no overriding moral code – only his enigmatic Diagram. He misleads and kills on a massive scale in order to further his messianic predictions or pretentions. He is the least sympathetic character, to my mind, since he pretends to be kind and helpful, while dealing death and destruction. Sadeas, at least, was honest about his ambitions and desire for power. Szeth deals death under a compulsion to follow orders. Taravangian, on the other hand, chooses to follow the hints of his Diagram regardless of cost in lives. Arranging for a multitude of deaths in the guise of healing, in order to get some dying words appears to be something apart from the Diagram and is more like Moelach worship.
On a different note, Taravangian knows about the surgebinding powers of Jasnah and Shallan, but not about Kaladin. Jasnah’s powers may have been evident to Taravangian who had opportunities to observe her. Knowledge of Shallan’s power, however, appears to be due to spying. Someone in her entourage (or her hosts) appears to be a spy for the Diagram cult. Is it Vatah, Caz, or Sebarial/Palona?
@20 Halien
The Radiants really do have awful timing. If they had gotten together six months ago and compared notes, the world might not be on the verge of total apocalypse. I assume that the Diagram has a certain amount of wiggle room, allowing Taravangian to respond to altered circumstances with different strategies. Remember, he had separate plans for Dalinar if he had become a warlord instead of trying to unite Alethkar.
I agree that, so far, Taravangian has been almost purely destructive. However, he specifically tells Szeth that his plan is to tear down the existing walls to build a structure that can stand before the coming storm. Even though he is weakening existing states, he is doing so purposefully so that he can unite them into a new political system under his control. As a “ends justify the means” thinker, he understands that long-term success may require temporary setbacks. Taravangian is completely willing to murder hospital patients or incite civil wars as long as humanity survives in the end, and the jury is still out on how effective his methods will be.
Unless things change drastically, large portions of Alethkar are about to be destroyed by rampaging Voidbringers. So far, Dalinar has no real plan for stopping Odium, no good plan for saving Alethkar, and no allies among the rest of the world. (Except Taravangian.) “Journey before destination” is certainly more ethical than Taravangian’s chilling indifference to human life, but it would be nice if our heroes had an actual strategy for saving the world. If Earth was being invaded by aliens, we wouldn’t want an amoral mass murderer in charge of planetary defense, but Dalinar’s performance up to this point hasn’t been particularly inspiring. Maybe they could do a team-up, where Dalinar has veto power over Taravangian’s most horrific choices and Taravangian spends his days explaining to our heroes that Good doesn’t have to be synonymous with Unprepared.
@22 Taravangian says he has a plan to save the world but so far his execution doesn’t seem to be any better than Team Good. He failed at your points 1-3 as much as the other team and I don’t remember any indication he knew about the Everstorm or the Parshmen. The KR might be slow off the mark but they almost stopped the Everstorm which Taravangian didn’t even try to do.
@23 noblehunter
Taravangian has a long-term plan that accepts massive civilian casualties as inevitable and seeks to unify the world under his leadership. Since his knowledge of Odium and the Unmade exceeds that of our heroes, I don’t think he’ll be completely surprised by the parshmen turning into Voidbringers, and he’s either accepted the transformation as something he can’t prevent or planned to use it as part of his plan. Possibly both. Now, his plan may be flawed, and it may not work in the end, but he has an actual strategy for winning the war.
As for his execution…Taravangian’s last scene in Words of Radiance ends with him being crowned as the ruler of Jah Keved, one of his major goals. Dalinar’s last scene ends with large parts of his army dead, Alethkar about to go up in flames due to peasant rebellion and parshman transformation, and with Dalinar still knowing less about Odium than the members of all thirty-nine secret societies operating within Alethkar and Jah Keved. If knowledge is power, he’s basically unarmed.
Alethkar’s ongoing war with the Parshendi caused them to resort to stormform. The Alethi effectively caused the apocalypse, and there is substantial evidence that the Sons of Honor actually wanted this to happen. Dalinar remained largely oblivious to the many secret societies operating under his nose, failed to learn anything about Odium, and did the best he could without the knowledge he needed. By the time he took his army out to stop the Everstorm, it was essentially too late, and his brilliant leadership, with the help of his fellow Radiants, only succeeded in salvaging most of his army.
Given the situation Dalinar was in, saving his army was an impressive accomplishment. But my point is that Dalinar always finds himself in bad situations because he has bad information. As of the end of WOR, the KR still know less than Taravangian, the Ghostbloods, the Skybreakers, and even the Sons of Honor. Their magical superpowers only let them react to what Odium is doing, instead of forming their own plans and strategies. This will probably change in the next book, but their lack of preparation so far does not inspire confidence.
@@@@@ dptullos – I fully acknowledge that Our Heroes could have done a better job at all of the things you mention.
My big issue is with the whole “ends justify the means” thinking behind the Diagram, and the fact that it was created with zero compassion involved. Especially when Roshar explicitly has “Journey before destination” as a tenant of the forces of good.
Those two views are so diametrically opposed that I can’t imagine the two groups not running into full-on conflict, even though their goals are supposedly both to save people.
@24 dptullos So he get crowned King of a broken kingdom while the world is about to be scoured by the Everstorm. Seems to me he spent his time aiming at the wrong goals. Until there is evidence to the contrary, I’m not comfortable saying Taravangian is doing any better than the KR. Unless I’m missing something and we have proof that actions of the Parshendi were predicted by the Diagram. The return of the voidbringers and the Everstorm were a loss for everyone but there was only one team in position to try and stop it.
@14 and others
Here’s the thing Taravangian’s plan has a 100% chance of saving some people. Let’s say for the sake of argument it something like 10-20%. The Radiant’s don’t have a plan at all right now and even if they do end up getting their shit together and winning they are still going to have a loss that will end up close to or maybe more than 50% of the current population if past desolation are anything to go by. Yes Taravangian’s choice is very pragmatic but that’s really all it’s got going for it.Yes it idealistic to side with Radiant’s because they might not end up saving any more people but then again they might.
I don’t have time to search though my copy right now but I remember when I was reading about Taravangian’s plan I got the distinct felling that his plan required Odium to win. That the end goal was save a small sliver of humanity to continue on after all was lost. He isn’t planing on stopping Odium. Which makes sense to me. Odium in this world is God’s own divine hatred, how can you expect to win long term against that? You don’t; Odium will eventually win. I could see that Taravangian would eventually think that humanity would lose the only question is if can survive after it has lost. His goal is not to stop Odium or save the world, it’s to preserve humanity after Odium eventually wins.
@25 jeremyguebert
That’s entirely fair. Since the New Radiants want to save people and Taravangian wants to save humanity, conflict is definitely in their future. Given Taravangian’s habit of murdering hospital patients and starting civil wars, their conflict is probably not going to be resolved by talking.
Ethical and effective are not always contradictory. But Taravangian always does what he considers effective, and “journey before destination” means that the New Radiants are supposed to always do what they consider ethical. Even if it means they lose a battle. Or a city. Or a continent. Because they won’t sacrifice everything for the “greater good” in the same way Taravangian will, they are vulnerable to being trapped by their own sense of right and wrong.
I want Sanderson to show us the cost of “journey before destination”. We need to see the consequences when a Windrunner stays in a losing fight to save innocent people and isn’t available the next day, when the Voidbringers attack a larger city. We have to see how a Skybreaker’s insistence on justice can lose valuable allies, or how a Stonewarden’s stubbornness kills his entire unit. If we accept that the ends don’t justify the means, then we have to understand that we won’t always have the ends we want. Compassion and justice and honesty are all expensive virtues, and expediency often seems like a safer path to travel.
What if Taravangian’s beliefs about his genius are right? What if the Diagram actually did provide the best chance for humanity’s survival? If this weren’t a fantasy story where the heroes win in the end, if we were actually asking ourselves who we wanted to defend Earth from a genocidal threat, would we choose Dalinar? Or Taravangian?
As long as compassion is free, everyone would choose it. The real test is how long we hold on to compassion and ethics when the journey could cause us to lose the destination.
@27 kei_rin
I don’t believe that Taravangian’s plan is 100% likely to succeed. I don’t think it fits Sanderson’s themes and storytelling style. Throughout the series, the journey before destination and the end justifies the means approaches are juxtaposed, but there is always a sense that there’s no guaranteed outcome. What Taravangian gained from the Nightwatcher was a capacity, not a guarantee.
He may have convinced himself, in his arrogance, that his plan guarantees success. I think it’s indicative of a blind spot or a delusion.
He asked to save humanity. Not humans on Roshar but humanity. Not really good wording even if he didn’t know it.
The problem with the expedient route is what you look like as people post destination. What will humanity look like if Teravangian’s way of thinking prevails? Will we look at humanity as a species worth saving if the end justify means crowd is running things at the end of it? As costly as virtue is, it’s a price that must be paid to make humans worthy of the effort it will take to save them. Or would you rather have Odium-built humans strolling the Cosmere?
@31 EvilMonkey
Exactly. One of the author’s overarching themes is that the way you fight matters just as much as the outcome of the battle.
@29
I don’t think Taravangian’s plan is 100% likely to succeed either. I stated it that way as an hypothetical. All the numbers I pulled were hypothetical numbers that allow me to conceptualize the arguments better.
@28
Yes compassion and morals are expensive virtues but I think I would be very sad if those were more expensive then expediency and pragmatism. But that’s just me. I’m also the type of person who loves superhero movies but hate that they very often don’t address that that awesome superhero fight just killed thousands of innocent people. (It’s something I liked about the new DC movie actually. They actually address this.) I miss the old superhero movies where they would make and effort to keep the knock out drag out fights out of the cities to minimize loss of life and property. The whole point of being a hero is trying to save people, isn’t it? Call me a soft hearted fool if you must.
@31 EvilMonkey, @32 Halien
Everything you’re saying is correct. But it’s not just the absolute choice between JBD and the Diagram’s complete abandonment of ethics. It’s the thousand small choices that lie in between. Does a Windrunner abandon people to die if he knows it’s a trap? Does he refuse to save a town if it could prevent him from saving a city? There are millions and millions of people, and only a handful of Radiants. Even as their numbers grow, they’ll find themselves in situations where they have to ask whether their sacrifice is worth not being there to save people the day after.
Will the heroes abandon a city that they can’t hold? Will they leave refugees behind to secure their own survival? Once Odium realizes that they’re bound by a code, it won’t take him long to put them in situations where they have to choose between winning and doing the right thing. The New Radiants will have to decide what they’re willing to sacrifice, and it won’t be as simple as the choice to reject the Diagram.
@33 kei_rin
That wasn’t so much the choice between ethics and expedience as it was the director’s decision to have a cool fight scene in a big city. Superman has superspeed, so there’s nothing stopping him from just flying the baddie out of New York. They can have their big fight in Montana.
Much as I enjoy superhero movies, they skip the debate entirely in favor of pretending that superheros and villains can punch each other through skyscrapers without civilian casualties. I can love superhero comics and movies while acknowledging the flaws in their insistence that death. Civilians aren’t shown, or don’t count, while no named character ever stays dead.
@34
Yeah that stopped working for me once I grew up and realized that wasn’t possible and there would be casualties. In order to keep enjoying the movies I just imagine that it got resolved off screen somehow. But for Stormlight Archive in specific I think this issue will become a theme at some level in the books.
It’s worth pointing out that Taravangian doesn’t just lack compassion when he’s brilliant, he also lacks empathy. When he gets stratospherically smart, he absolutely unable to understand how ordinary people will react. The Diagram might be sociopathically brilliant enough to compensate but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
We also don’t know how limited the Diagram was by the information Taravangian had when he made it. While his genius seemed to grant near-clairvoyant and pre-cognitive ability, if he didn’t know about something he couldn’t have factored it into the Diagram.
Great discussion going on today! This is quite a chapter. I need to insert a quotation here:
Taravangian does NOT have any confidence that he’s guaranteed to save anything. He can only try. Which is cool in its own way… But like many others, I’d like him to acknowledge that his incredible genius on That Day was completely devoid of compassion and empathy, and that it may be flawed because of that lack.
I do LOVE the idea that Taravangian will be (at least partially) responsible for saving humanity through the empathy of a less-intelligent day. That would be very, very excellent.
Also: Andrew @1 – I, too, suspect that Taravangian was lying about pretty much everything with Szeth, and that the Stone Shamans still have the other seven Honorblades. We know he was lying about Kaladin having it; as soon as Szeth is gone, he goes looking for clues to a Radiant, and finds a very clear answer. So while it’s faintly possible that one of the other Honorblades is missing, I’m betting that was made up on the spot because Szeth wouldn’t have any way to know better.
Unless you’re committed to a pacifist response to evil, then everyone has to accept that in some sense their ends will justify their means. That is something that characters like Dalinar, Kaladin and Shalllan have already struggled with in the books. Kaladin is willing to kill Parshendi, but only when the ends of protecting people he cares about justifies the means. Dalinar started to lose the “Thrill” (perhaps for RAFO reasons and) because he started to believe that they way they were fighting was no longer justified because the end had shifted from avenging his brother (perhaps a dubious end in itself) to gaining more gem hearts (an economic boon that might actually justify it in some people’s minds.)
In the life, we are constantly making value judgments about the ends justifying the means. As many of you have pointed out “Journey before destination” speaks to that issue, but it cannot solely mean that the ends don’t outweigh the use of some morally questionable means. Otherwise how do they justify killing defenseless Parshendi distracted by their song, unless the morally questionable nature of that is outweighed by the small chance of stopping the song in time to stop the Everstorm. The very unlikely hope of achieving that worthwhile end justifies, in their minds, the morally questionable tactic.
I think the difference between Dalinar, et al. and Taravangian is that, the former have some sense of a line they won’t cross. The windrunners are sworn to protect those who can’t protect themselves. That may mean that they use questionable methods, and may even mean that they protect someone at the cost of not being able to protect someone else. It might be shortsighted, but that sort of self sacrifice brings about a good in society that is important. It seems like Taravangian’s diagram is built on an an end that is too vague and it was conceived at a time when he was at his least human/most sociopathic, and his only corrective action comes from the death rattles given by Moleach. If #27 Kei_rin is right that he’s aligned himself with Odium, then I feel confident in saying that he’s bitten of a sliver of Odium that is more than he’ll be able to stomach regardless of the ends.
Odium has proven in his attack on Sel that he isn’t someone you want to align with, even if it means saving humanity. If that’s the only option, then sadly I’m with Hoid and would rather see Roshar burn, than see humanity survive but be bound to Odium. Humanity out of Odium’s control is an end that justifies almost any means, because the threatened Humanity isn’t just on Roshar, as can be inferred from Hoid’s letter and *spoiler for Bands of Mourning in white text* what Harmony shows Wax in Bands of Mourning.
I think there’s another way, though, and the Diagram hints at there being an openness to events, as it couldn’t predict with certainty what would happen in Alethkar, and it seems like the worst of his fears has come to pass with Dalinar coming out on top.
More philosophically, I think that there is a question of whether there is ever such a thing as a Just War. By assuming that Just War exists, as many people do, you are accepting that some ends, justify some means. I can buy this to a point. Just War theory has helped us to define the limits of acceptable warfare, limiting both the ends of war and the means by which we fight.
However, I do think that in real life and in fantasy, there are consequences to any morally questionable act regardless of the ends it achieves. It is wrong to act like it doesn’t cost people to fight in wars, even when the stated and real ends of the war are of great value. Men who fought in World War II fought for morally valuable ends, but they came home with scars left from killing other human beings. We fool ourselves, if we think the ends take away the human toll of our means. Brandon has worked hard to show that in his books, I believe, as character do have to come to terms with the consequences of justified, but horrible acts. We kid ourselves if we think that all of our actions are truly justified, by any ends. This is especially true of killing, but any act of oppression can have long lasting effects on a person or group of people.
In some ways, Szeth’s arguments with himself and his desire to blame his victims is this fact to an extreme. He believes his honor as a Truthless justifies any means that his masters demands, but he also feels the weight of those acts on his soul and tries to pass it off, but in the final analysis he can’t. I look forward to seeing how he progresses as a character and whether he feels set free from that weight or if he becomes embittered by it. I kind of lean toward the latter.
I appreciate that these are the kinds of issues that Brandon is bringing out in his story. As usual, he doesn’t like to spout his own perspective, except that we can generally expect that the ending will tend toward a victory, if only a pyrrhic one, for the side he favors. I think it’s important, though, the way he doesn’t shy away from the damage such victories cause to the victors, such as Vin and Elend not choosing to return, the questionable actions of the Lord Mistborn when it comes hemalurgy, etc. Wars can be fought for just reasons, and with some limit on the kind of means that are acceptable, but it still leaves real scars on people, both loser and victor.
Wars between human beings are never simple struggles of good vs evil, with only the “evil” side inflicting lasting damage on people. People who think their cause is justified are nonetheless capable of hurting essentially innocent people, or their own supporters as a means to the supposed end of protecting just those people, or causing untold damage to people they don’t care about, but who from an objective point of reference deserve the same protection. That seems clear enough to me based on so many different people thinking they’re fulfilling Gavilar’s dream, but going about it in completely different ways.
It’s all about the line. It’s always about the line. In the end, Dalinar and the Radients have one, whether imposed by their oaths or coming from their own moral code, and Teravangian does not. Knowing that there is a side that has a line they will not cross automatically wants me to root for that side. The thousands of small actors making those million decisions in the heat of battle inform their choices based on the lines they will or will not cross. Those with an overarching moral code will act with more dignity and will at least make the attempt to do what is right or at least what is less wrong. Scars are a part of the business.
Lastly, what is the Nightwatcher? Is it of Cultivation? And if it is, does it feel the same way the Stormfather felt about humanity? It is said that she gives those who seek her out what she thinks they deserve. What if she feels humanity doesn’t deserve to continue?
@27
I also got the impression that maybe the Diagram was going to help humanity survive after Odium wins, rather than actually stopping Odium. Saren from the first Mass Effect game came to my mind.
It may even be that super-smart Taravangian even wrote it in such a complex code as a way of slowly leading less-smart Taravangian along. Slowly leading him down worse and worse decisions as he decodes it until he finally gives up hope and just ignores his compassionate side to go with a horrifying one that Taravangian never would have agreed to if he knew the full thing upfront.
First off, Taravangian is an awesome character and I’m looking forward to seeing more of him. His curse gives him such an odd relationship with his own self.
Anyways, about the Nightwatcher: Others have pointed out that she gives people whatever she wants – we can’t be sure that she actually gave Taravangian the capacity to stop what is coming or save humankind or anything else, regardless of what he asked for. As far as we know, she has freedom in the boons and curses she gives. So…what was she actually planning when she gave Taravangian this gift? What is she trying to do? Can we be sure that she actually wants to save humanity or even Roshar? Wyndle says to Lift: “Mother has given up on your kind. I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone…” (I’m guessing that “He” is Tanavast, as Tanavast and Cultivation’s Shardholder were romantically involved.) If Wyndle was speaking about the Nightwatcher, and she has indeed given up on humankind, why would she give Taravangian the capacity to save the world? So I’m suspicious that the Nightwatcher may be up to something else. Perhaps she’s doing something along the lines of the Stormfather providing a highstorm to “carry away your corpses”, and she’s hoping to end it all quickly?
Thus, I question whether Taravangian’s intelligent days, or compassionate days, or balanced days, or anything else are actually able to save the world at all. (But I do like the idea of his saving humanity on a day of ultimate compassion, though I have trouble seeing him being able to do anything if he indeed spends those days “drooling in a corner”.) And the Diagram is fishy: why did he make it so hard to understand? Could he just not empathize enough to see how to make it understandable? Did he not have time? Or did he want it to be hard to understand for some reason? Others have pointed out various interesting reasons why the genius Taravangian may have obfuscated the Diagram. So yes. I’m beginning to wonder if the Nightwatcher is just using Taravangian for some other purpose which will naturally become clear at the worst possible moment.
This is one reason why I hesitate to trust Taravangian and the Diagram at any level. If I’m understanding correctly, some people are arguing that, compared to the Radiants under Dalinar, Taravangian is 1) more prepared and 2) more pragmatic; therefore, he would be more effective at saving humanity than the Radiants would be. I’m not sure he’s actually better prepared, however. His preparations are coming from a questionable gift from the Nightwatcher, a day of zero compassion and empathy, guidance from splinters of Odium, and interpretation of a work he can barely understand. Maybe he’s been able to get more done than our disorganized Radiants…but is he getting things done that will actually help, or is he just being manipulated to some undesirable end? His efficacy could be doing a great deal more harm than good given the dubious sources of the information he’s working by. The Radiants may not know as much at this point, but I think they could eventually get much better information with scholars and spies like Shallan, Jasnah, Navani, &c on their side. I.e., Taravangian has more information, but the Radiants could get better information that is less likely to be used to manipulate them.
Setting aside those issues, and looking at his pragmatism: Other commenters have asked whether humanity is worth saving by Taravangian’s methods, or if the kind of humanity that would result from Taravangian’s methods is worth saving. These are both valid points, I believe. I think both the Radiants and Taravangian are willing to use ends to justify the means to some extent – SteveK pointed out some examples of Radiants doing this. Both are them are willing to sacrifice for “the greater good”. But I think there’s a difference in that the Radiants’ idea of a “greater good” is much more expansive and inclusive. Taravangian just wants humanity to survive; the Radiants want moral, compassionate humanity to survive. If the Radiants slaughtered and manipulated innocents like Taravangian, their means would be hurting their end even if people were saved – because they want to save more than just the physical human beings. So if the Radiants want to pursue the goal of saving moral and humane human civilization, then I think the best and most effective means have to involve some moral lines that Odium could hypothetically exploit. You cannot pursue the Radiants’ goal by Taravangian’s means. So, that begs the question…which goal is actually more worthy of its costs? Saving the human species, or saving humanity?
At any rate, if the goal is to save moral and compassionate human civilization, then I don’t think Taravangian would be more effective than the Radiants. And that’s aside from any ethical issues of whether Taravangian’s actions are justifiable; my point here is that if you want the humans of Roshar to both survive and have a moral civilization, I think the Radiants would do a better job than Taravangian. Once you start raising the ethical questions, oh yes, I’d rather follow Dalinar and burn than follow Taravangian and save a remnant of humanity via inhumanity, but that’s just my opinion.
(Oh, and stick a general “Citation Needed” tag on that paragraph about Taravangian’s pragmatism. I made a lot of statements there that I didn’t fully back up, but I’m hoping I could if somebody wanted to debate at length about it…)
Philosophical tangent incoming! According to what I know of Realmatic Theory, tons people dying isn’t necessarily all that bad. Spoilers for Secret History…
According to Harmony in Secret History, people who die in the Physical move on to the Spiritual Realm, which is just some other, unknown state of being. If we see a Knight Radiant not as a spren-empowered human, but as a symbiotic organism composed of human and spren working together through the nahel bond, then it would always be better for the KR to do what is “right”, risking death, than to do what is “wrong” and sever the bond which gives the Physical access to the Cognitive and the Cognitive access to the Physical. Physical death doesn’t sever the bond. Betraying ideals does.
From this point of view, the Diagram seems like a plan for a Second Recreance.
@43 rossnewberry: Where does it say in Secret History that those who die move on to the Spiritual Realm? I thought they went Beyond, which is, well, beyond the Three Realms. Regardless, I’m not sure I’m getting your point…Are you saying that death is not a big issue because we know there’s some kind of afterlife? But what does the link between Cognitive and Physical granted by the Nahel bond have to do with it…? I don’t think I’m following.
@39 SteveK
I think that Brandon Sanderson likes the theme of personal sacrifice and ethics in war, but he tends to overlook the theme of personal sacrifice and ethics in peace. Elend abandons his ideal of democracy to become a tyrant, but he never faces any real opposition from the skaa or Kelsier’s crew. Even though he thinks about the problems of tyranny, all of the actual resistance comes from evil aristocrats (his father), amoral warlords (Cett), and Lawful Evil bureaucrats (Yomen). Kelsier organized a rebellion to overthrow the Lord Ruler and the nobility, they end up with mostly the same people in charge, and both the skaa and Kelsier’s comrades are shown to accept this decision with a minimum of dissent.
During his time as a senior obligator, Yomen oversaw the mandatory murder of skaa women for the terrible crime of possibly bearing Allomancer children. Cett calmly tells Elend that skaa aren’t meant to be free, and that his peasants are worse off than they were under the Lord Ruler. Both of these men end up occupying senior positions in Elend’s government, and Yomen’s family are still prominent aristocrats in the Alloy of Law era. If America decided to pardon all the senior Nazis and let them keep their jobs, we wouldn’t be doing any worse than Team Venture’s human resources department.
The main costs of Elend’s decisions are born by the skaa who get to keep living as peasants, instead of slaves, under the less tyrannical rule of Cett and Yomen. It’s progress of a sort, but it’s the kind of incremental, careful progress that leaves the “right people” in charge and keeps power out of the hands of the common folk. Even after centuries of growth, change, and progress, Elendel is still largely run by the descendants of the nobility and Kelsier’s crew. The Survivor would not be happy.
We can see Words of Radiance following the same pattern. Dalinar, Radiant and highprince, is the tyrant. Only people who are high-ranking lighteyes, Radiants, or both, are part of his inner circle. Three out of four Radiants so far are members of Roshar’s aristocracy, and three out of four are either current members of the Kholin family or engaged to marry into House Kholin. At least Elend tried to create a government that represented more than just the aristocracy and people with magical superpowers. Dalinar isn’t even making a good-faith effort.
It’s okay for Elend to be King because he’s a good man. He can do away with his council and rule as a tyrant because he’s a good man. And the same is true of Dalinar. For all of Dalinar’s talk about trust, all of the decisions stay in his hands, and even his family and closest allies remain under his control and subject to his orders. He can understand tyranny’s flaws when he’s talking to Wit, but I don’t think he’ll actually change his actions. The “right of the strongest” is just too convenient for Dalinar to abandon, and his belief in honor doesn’t change the fact that he needs to be in charge.
There’s always an outside Big Bad, and that danger always means that a small band of heroes has to remain in charge. Instead of confronting painful and complicated problems within their society, they can throw down against the baddies. Can’t fix the fundamental hatred and distrust between skaa and noblemen? Ruin shows up, and now everyone has to unite against an outside enemy. Live in a society that worships war, relies on eye color to determine your caste, and considers appearance more important than reality? The Voidbringers return, and now everyone has to do what you say if they want to survive.
Fighting is simple, but fixing is complicated. Sanderson has his heroes fight bravely and sacrifice nobly, but they can’t actually fix what’s wrong with the worlds they live in, and they won’t give anyone else a chance. Most of his books end with the heroes in charge, confident that they can “fix” society without changing too much or losing their control. As long as the protagonists are running things, most people don’t need to have a voice or a choice. It’s a monarchist’s view of the world.
Anyone wondering if Redin will be significant? I didn’t see him mentioned in this discussion at all. He mercy kills his father and just rides off forever never to be seen again? He seems significant since he was mentioned twice already (once before in a shallan flashback)
I don’t understand the reservations or even sympathy for Taravangian and his methods. I agree that he is an interesting character, but hardly a model a decent behavior. To my mind, his anguish is of little account given what he actually does. It merely makes him ‘normal’ instead of a psychopath. Nor are his goals a saving grace since he has no idea how to save humanity once he achieves rule over them. That is why he sacrifices people under his care in a vain attempt to get some critical information. The Diagram is then a misleading puzzle which provides some clues but no solutions. Perhaps that was the Nightwatcher’s intention – to tease rather than help. The Radiants may have less knowledge about some matters than Taravangian, but they have confronted and defeated some Voidbringers and have succeeded in accessing a refuge for humanity. That is far more important, helpful, and moral than anything that Taravangian has achieved. Indeed, he has only apparently achieved rule over Jah Keved and whatever had survived the disastrous civil war that he precipitated. Who or what survived the Everstorm passage and the transformed Parshmen is yet unknown.
@45 dptullos, I don’t fault either Dalinar or the author for the ‘monarchial’ stance taken. The Alethi have no tradition of democracy. They have ostensibly only known rulers imposed upon them – whether king and princes or warlords or a theocracy (the lower class darkeyes have even greater subjugations). The times are exceedingly dangerous and call for very strong leadership – as opposed to democratic debates and majority rule. Even a well established democracy like the US became far more subject to control during actual wartime – whether under Lincoln or FDR.
@47 STBLST
If unethical methods are also ineffective, there’s no actual moral choice involved. Only chumps do evil things that don’t work. For Taravangian’s choice to be meaningful, there has to be an actual advantage to following the Diagram. Also, you are making a whole lot of assumptions about the failure of a plan that we don’t actually know that much about. So far Taravangian has “only” taken over a kingdom far larger than his own and convinced the people that he is their savior. If the Diagram is as useless as you claim, then he wouldn’t have succeeded in such a dangerous and difficult task.
You are entirely correct that Alethkar has no tradition of democracy, but no one has a tradition of democracy until they start one. So far, Alethkar has tried a corrupt and fraudulent theocracy, highprinces who spend all of their princedom’s wealth on wars and feasts, and a “united” kingdom that spends all of its money on wars and feasts in the Shattered Plains. As a result, the people in the capital are revolting, creating another problem that Dalinar doesn’t have the resources to deal with. Maybe it’s time to look at alternatives.
America fought both the Civil War and WWII with democratically elected leaders, and we did fine in both of them. I don’t think a lot of historians would describe FDR or Lincoln as weak, even though they were elected by the people instead of seizing power. Lincoln and FDR held wartime powers, but they accepted the judgement of the people they led and emerged stronger from the process. “Strength” in a leader is about convincing people that they want you to lead them, not just telling them what to do. Maybe if Dalinar was a better politician, he wouldn’t have only three highprinces following him when he goes out to fight the Parshendi before the Everstorm. Or maybe not- the highprinces are unaccountable tyrants who generally do whatever they can get away with. Another weakness of the Alethi system.
All those democratic debates give people a chance to convince their rivals and build an agreement. Debates and quarrels and division build a strong civil society with rules and tradition that can survive weak leaders. Contrast this with Alethkar during the banquet, as Dalinar finally realizes that the nation they built is worthless because it relies entirely on the strength of a single man. If strength is the right to rule, then Sadeas is right to challenge Dalinar when he seems weak. There is no “us”, no tribe, no nation, just a pack of predators watching the head wolf to see if he stumbles. Maybe Alethkar would be better off investing in a different form of strength.
I like to think that the diagram works, or at lest has a real chance of working. Otherwise, like dptullos pointed out, we have another evil character doing evil things for evil / useless reasons and there’s no conflict. If there’s only the choice between losing by doing good or losing by doing evil you might as well be good. Same if both have an equal chance to succeed. But the moment you have the CERTAINTY of victory by doing evil (amoral) things – at least according to reader morals and 21st century ethics vs the possibility of total loss by keeping your moral stance, only then you can have a real and meaningful conflict.
I also loved the point sheesania made about the fact that we don’t know Nightwatcher motivations. We saw that the Highfather had a fairly high degree of autonomy in matters not directly related to Honor. So we can assume that Nightwatcher has the same with cultivation. So maybe, the diagram will serve a completely different purpose. It could also set up a coalition under Taravingian for the heroes to use later. Nothing says that the last thing on the diagram doesn’t read: “Taravingian ally with Dalinar then kill yourself”
Lastly, the prince in Jah Keved might be set up to join the Radiants or Shallan’s family and provide a sort of in-exile resistance to Taravingian. Or he could prove to be a Son of Honor..
@48 dptullos Yet even FDR decided to disregard the traditional two term “limit” in place. It frightened congress enough that they passed a law against it mainly because of how difficult it is to remove a sitting president, barring scandel, due to the power and influence that they amass during their time in office. Who knows how long FDR would have tried to retain power “for the good of the nation” had he not died in office.
Also remember that we are not a true democracy, but a republic with a president not elected by the people, but by the “right” people. And that last sentence comes across as waaaaaaaay too conspiracy theory, but gets the general gist across I think.
@50 Stormy
There was no actual law establishing a two-term limit at the time. It’s not FDR’s fault that previous presidents weren’t as ambitious or popular as he was, and if Americans didn’t think FDR being President was good for the nation, they wouldn’t have kept voting for him.
You’re entirely correct about the difference between ideal, direct democracy and a republic. A republic does have established political factions, gatekeepers, and interest groups who influence the selection of the president long before the voters get a choice. Most democratic systems have oligarchic and even aristocratic elements; look at the Kennedys, Bushes, or Clintons. The difference is that the voters get the final word. It’s fair to be skeptical about the shortcomings of democracy, but at least our political system tries to give people choices instead of just dumping the current ruler’s firstborn on them and insisting it’s for the best.
Wow I’m late to the party this time, a lot of comments…but not surprising considering Taravangian’s complexity.
I think my biggest problem with a lot of the defenses for the Diagram is that people are trying to conflate Taravangian’s success at taking over Jah Keved as proof the Diagram is working, and especially comparing that with Dalinar’s difficulties handling what is happening in Alethkar. Even ignoring all the assumptions that go into the Diagram, that’s ignoring the largest reason why Taravangian is successful: he’s had plenty of time and freedom to go about making an organization to get what he wants that has been able to act without really being impeded. It’s still fine to think the Diagram might be the better chance: Sanderson is basically showing there’s one group driven by pure, intellect-driven pragmatism versus our more traditional heroes with the KRs, so it’s more a philosophical debate. One that only works on both sides because it’s a book: it’s only the knowledge that this really will end in a possible apocalypse that makes a plan like the Diagram justifiable, because otherwise it’s a group following the plans of an incredibly smart doomsday madman.
For that matter, a lot of people early on pointed this out, but all Taravangian asked for was capacity to save humankind and stop what’s coming, which doesn’t involve the Diagram at all: Taravangian is assuming that his day of brilliance and the plan he came up with is the capacity he was gifted with. It’s interesting to me that Taravangian himself has such faith in the Diagram working out, when on a lesser scale he realized that when he’s at his more brilliant he needs to be kept away from people because his lack of empathy would cause him to make mistakes. Yet he clings to the idea that when he was in his ultimate state of intelligence and no empathy, that the ultimate plan that resulted from that must be bound to work.
Still sounds like a large assumption to me…
As for the idea that if Taravangian is ultimately following a misguided plan in the Diagram, that defeats the point of him being a thematic counter-balance to the KRs…well, I understand that worry, but personally (and maybe this is just because I prefer the KR way of doing things) the point of ends versus means as a debate is the conflict and finding the best in-between. The KRs already have this to a degree because the different Orders have different Ideals. The Diagram, on the other hand, is about slavish devotion to one extreme. One extreme that is only even potentially viable because the conceit of the story itself demands that Taravangian is at least right about there being an apocalypse on the way. But YMMV, as some above comments show.
On a subject that’s less philosophically divisive, Redin is definitely built up some more in this chapter, and I doubt it’s just so he can actually disappear after this and be unimportant. I’m guessing he’s at least going to be a future Interlude character, but it all depends on where he’s headed. If he ends up crossing paths with one of our main characters he may just end up in one of their posses.
@51 dptullos Yeah I know there was no law, that was why I quoted limit, I should have specified instead of being lazy. I should also state that I don’t dislike our political system and agree that getting to make a choice is more than huge, I just think that Alethkar’s government in function isn’t going to be any different in a democracy (or ours for that matter, those highprinces act an awful lot like congress in general).
Anyway, I had a point to all of this that actually tied into the book and the discussion but I lost that line of thought with a browser refresh and can’t remember it anymore. I didn’t mean to sidetrack the discussion with (real world) political discussions. Thanks for the response!
I see the Lighteyes / Darkeyes system breaking apart before the 10 books are finished. It’s been too much of a “thing” to be ignored or remain in place. Especially once a number of Darkeyes become Radiants.
Conservation of characters rule will cause us to see Redin again.
Maybe Redin will see through Taravangian’s “benevolent” rule and rebel against him.
Two more interesting things I noticed in this chapter:
-What’s the deal with Mrall being able to turn off his emotions on a whim? Taravangian think there’s something interesting in it, but quickly turns his attention to something else. Is it just psychopathy, or is there something magical going on?
-After hearing that the number of Death Rattles is dropping, Taravangian says that the Unmade Moelach “must have been drawn by something westward”. What sort of thing would attract Moelach? Are there events we know of in western Roshar that could possibly attract it?
@3 kei_rin: Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar’s death, so the Diagram must have been written after the assassination. Which, speaking of Gavilar…Gavilar saw visions! This was one of the most interesting parts of the chapter to me, so I’m surprised no one has discussed it much. I’m particularly curious about them because Sanderson RAFO’ed a question asking if Gavilar and Dalinar saw the same visions. So…were they actually different when Gavilar saw them? Were his actions towards the Parshendi a result of the commands in the visions to “unite them”? How are the goals of Taravangian and the Sons of Honor related to the visions? How did Gavilar keep the visions secret even from close family, when Dalinar wasn’t able to hide them?
@28 dptullos: Your description of how the attributes of different Radiant orders may cause problems brought to mind the problems caused by the shattering of Adonalsium into sixteen separate Intents. (It reminds me of the bit in the Letter: “He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.”) I wonder if many of the problems in the Radiant Ideals may cancel each other out if the Radiants are united and working together, much as the Shards could perhaps be a proper God if they weren’t split up into separate purposes?
@49 VladZ: I personally like the uncertainty here about the efficacy of both the Diagram and the Radiants’ methods. Maybe victory is certain with the Diagram…or maybe not, we don’t know. Maybe the Radiants are doomed to fail…or maybe they’re not, we don’t know. There’s evidence to support both cases, but it’s inconclusive. The only thing we do know is that – aside from the whole question of what they’re actually going to accomplish – the Radiants’ means are more moral than Taravangian’s. But we don’t know who’s more likely to be successful, and that makes the choice that much more difficult and uncertain for the characters involved. I feel like that’s more realistic than a simple conflict between “amoral winning choice” and “moral losing choice”, since in real life you can rarely be so certain about the outcomes of your actions that you can make such an informed choice. There’s very little nice, logical number-crunching in practical ethics.
As for Redin: Another secret society member?! (Seriously, Roshar has got the Shard of Conspiracies or something.) Perhaps he is part of the Sons of Honor, but regardless, I do think he’ll show up again. Sanderson likes to reuse characters (see Goradel and Bilg in Mistborn), and Redin is also too interesting, knows too much (about Shallan’s family as well as Taravangian), and appears too many times to disappear forever. Oh, and he has a name.
Just popping in from a stint of lurking with a question. Have we confirmed or hypothesized that Hellaran was a surgebinder? I ask because of this small passage:
“Who is it?” he asked softly. “Who is this Surgebinder?”
“Jasnah’s ward?” Adrotagia said.
They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death.
I suppose this doesn’t prove that Hellaran was a surgebinder , but it begs the question. Honestly, he could just be “versed” in the mechanics similar to Teft. This also points out that Shallan’s bond isn’t as much of a secret as she may think.
@57 Delat: Mraize tells Shallan in chapter 88 that Helaran had sought out the Skybreakers, but that could just mean that he became part of their organization without actually being able to bond a spren. Additionally, it seems likely that Helaran’s Shardblade was dead because it was set with a gemstone when Shallan saw it, which would also seem to indicate that he wasn’t a Surgebinder.
For all of those who may be interested in it, I think Redin may be our Dustbringer. Remember we were still missing one.
My money is still on Adolin being our Dustbringer.
@48 dptullos, I have reread the epigrams featuring selections from the Diagram and don’t see any indication of an actual plan to save the remnants of mankind on Roshar from the impending Desolation. Mad genius Taravangian (Vargo) instructs his lesser self via hints and allusions to save ‘a seed of humanity’ regardless of cost in lives. He also instructs him to strive to become the ruler of humanity by carefully using a Shin man bearing an honor blade as his weapon to kill kings and princes who appear to be obstacles for that goal. Those instructions include Dalinar should he become a unifier of the Alethi and an obstacle to Vargo’s rule. He further instructs him not to get diverted by the Unmade. There is no explanation as to why becoming the ‘king of everyone’ is necessary in order to save a remnant. Nor is there advice given on how to save that remnant. Is it sufficient to find a secure hiding place and wait until after the Voidbringers start killing each other after having killed everyone else they could find? While Taravangian adheres to the Diagram to the extent of his and his scholars understanding, he disregards the advice about not getting diverted by the Unmade when he continues to elicit dying words from his unfortunate patients despite realizing that they were the work of Moelach. Vargo may not be convinced that he will succeed, but he is certainly under the impression that he must try. Nor is the presence of Radiants elsewhere a deterrent to his ambitions since their arrival has been predicted in the Diagram. He is only cautioned about the one who survives (Kaladin) who must not gain his full powers and who must not be in a position to confront the Shin man (Szeth). While the missing key details may be in passages from the Diagram book not hitherto revealed in the epigrams, the more likely scenario is that such detail will not be forthcoming. After all, why should the author not allude to such an aspect of the Diagram – if it exists, since it would make for a more dramatic tension between the moral (means focused) and ‘practical’ or realistic approaches (ends focused) to preventing deaths and disasters – as noted by some? In any case, the author has, no doubt, already decided the matter. Regardless of possible further information that could rationalize Taravangian’s quest, I would continue to maintain a revulsion for the means used to further that ambition.
@59: It has been pretty strongly disapproved as a possibility by WoB.
@61 STBLST:
I’m not sure if Taravangian knows either. The end of the chapter is insightful:
Could Taravangian be trying to become king of Roshar simply because Gavilar thought the visions said it was necessary?
@63 sheesania. I read the passage that you cited as a sop to Taravangian’s (Vargo) conscience. It is unlikely that Gavilar had pointed to Vargo saying ‘unite them’. Did Gavilar really believe that he would be assassinated and that he had to pick a successor? He did assume such a possibility since the just concluded treaty with the Parchendi had incurred much opposition. However, the deed was done, and he seemed prepared for such an attempt. Rather, ‘unite them’ was the message of visions dictated to Gavilar and directed at him. Vargo could choose to believe that he was the true successor and substitute for Gavilar, but Dalinar had the more obvious claim once he became a devotee of Nohadon’s rules. The fact is that Vargo treats the Diagram book as holy script and takes the inferred meanings very seriously. That book directs him to rule over Roshar, and that is the more cogent reason for all his immoral machinations towards that goal.
@64 STBLST: I agree that Gavilar probably didn’t tell Taravangian to “unite them”; there isn’t any clear textual evidence of that. My point was that perhaps Taravangian thought that the visions said somebody needed to “unite them” in order to save a remnant of humanity. So maybe, trusting the visions, Taravangian tried to become “king of everything” without understanding how this would save humanity. He just figured that if the visions said it was necessary, it was. So maybe when he wrote the Diagram, he was using his intelligence primarily to figure out how to take over Roshar, assuming that per his understanding of the visions he must do so to save humanity.
This is only an idea, though. I’ll probably look over the chapter again tomorrow and see if it holds up.
Heh. Came fresh to this week’s comments after reading through some of the comments on the Way of Kings re-read (which I’m also going through, as I never had the chance when it was ‘live’). I have to say, some of the ridiculous theories posted in the comments there made me smile, especially when juxtaposed against some of the comments here.
I especially liked the fact that one person posted a short quote from the text, and espoused how it was “certifiable proof” that his theory was correct. Unfortunately, there were at least three ways to take the quote cited, and the way he was taking it was incorrect. Logical fallacy is a harsh mistress.
Similarly, I think there’s a whole lot of circular reasoning going on here in regards to Taravangian’s Diagram. I simply don’t think we have enough information to be able to come to any conclusion that we have any level of confidence in. We can’t even really say for sure that Taravangian’s genius is the boon he asked for. What if it’s the curse, and is in reality completely unrelated to his requested boon?! Taravangian could be basing his entire worldview on a logical fallacy! And that is a terrible position from which to cause the deaths of so many innocent people.
Also, a quick note from a comment by @@@@@24. dptullos
Alethkar’s ongoing war with the Parshendi was caused, in turn, by the Parshendi themselves, in their attempt to prevent Gavilar from returning their gods. It comes full circle: The Parshendi want to prevent the return of their gods, so they assassinate Gavilar, which leads to a war with Alethkar, which leads to the Parshendi assuming they will be destroyed and the desperation that assumption causes, which leads to them taking on the forms they worked so hard to avoid to begin with.
How much suffering (if any) on ALL sides would have been avoided if they had chosen a different solution to the problem facing them?
This is something that’s been on my mind a lot of late. How often do we, in our attempts to avoid a certain thing, bring that very thing down upon our own heads as a consequence of our choices?
Several people have posted asking some version of “why didn’t supergenius!Taravangian make the Diagram easier to understand?” The answer is kind of obvious, actually: because that’s something that’s very difficult to do. Scientists have found that two people who are more than about 30 IQ points apart have a very difficult time communicating with one another. 30 points is about the size of the difference between an average person and one who is mentally retarded, and if it continues further up the scale, then if Taravangian is so brilliant as to be at least 30 points beyond an ordinary genius–which seems quite possible–then it would have been so difficult to communicate clearly with a person of average intelligence that it’s a wonder anyone is able to understand the Diagram at all!
And that’s assuming that they even did. That would make for a heck of a plot twist: He has another one of his supergenius days and looks around at what’s going on in complete despair, groaning to himself about how everyone got the intent of the Diagram completely wrong because they just weren’t smart enough to understand what it was about!
@67 Mason Wheeler: Yeah, I think it all depends on what “intelligence” actually means in Taravangian’s case. If it’s just raw IQ, then as you explain it makes sense that the Diagram would be extremely difficult to understand. If it’s a more rounded, wise kind of intelligence, on the other hand, then I’d expect him to be able to write clearly. (Indeed, one of the first traits I associate with a very smart person is the ability to write clearly about complex ideas.) But based on what we’ve seen of Taravangian’s intelligence, especially how it comes with lack of empathy, then it does seem to be the kind of raw brilliance that has trouble communicating with lesser mortals.
As of the end of WOR, no one has actually made much progress towards Gavilar’s “unite them” vision. Taravangian rules his own small kingdom and a devastated Jah Keved, while Dalinar has the allegiance of four out of ten Alethi highprinces. While we aren’t fully informed about Taravangian’s plans, we know that the foreign rulers Dalinar contacted have politely refused to believe his wild stories about parshmen. The only one who seems to be interested in his grand alliance is, well, Taravangian. Round One has definitely gone to Team Odium, and humanity won’t be in great shape for Round Two.
@66 brovery
I maintain that Taravangian’s success in taking over Jah Keved indicates that the Diagram is legitimate. When he followed the instructions, the events the Diagram predicted came to pass. However, you are correct to point out that we don’t actually know enough about the Diagram to fully understand it. Just because it works to help Taravangian gain power doesn’t mean that it will allow him to save the world.
Thank you for pointing out that the Parshendi started the war by assassinating Gavilar, who in turn convinced them to assassinate him by letting them know about his plans to bring back the Parshendi gods. “Bad communication kills” has never been more true than on Roshar. There are three hundred and twenty-nine secret societies devoted to defeating Odium and bringing about their own brighter future, and none of them share the information that might allow humanity to survive.
There’s a kind of tragic logic to bringing down your own doom in a frantic attempt to avert it. The Greeks had the idea of a “tragic flaw”, and we can see it at work here. Gavilar is so blinded by his vision that he can’t understand how the Parshendi will feel, and they can’t truly understand how much the Alethi love war and revenge. The only way for either side to find a solution is to trust each other, and no one is willing to do that.
This is how I see the timeline (I might be completely wrong though – that’s what makes it fun to speculate and then read the actual story)
1) Gavilar unites all the Alethi kings
2) Stormfather chooses him as a potential savior and starts showing him visions (I’m obviously making several assumptions here, that the visions were the same or at least similar in purpose, that the Stormfather can choose or must choose a leader among the Alethi or that Gavilar was already becoming more honorable which in turn led to him being chosen for the visions)
3) Gavilar starts to change, becomes more honorable, starts “reading” the Way of Kings and act accordingly. He forms a cabal to which he shares his visions (maybe not the visions per se, but at least the resulting thoughts and what they tell him to do). Taravingian and Amaram are part of that cabal.
4) He meets the parshendi on a hunting trip.
5) In combinations with the visions he realizes what they were and starts asking them about their old gods.
6) The parshendi get scared and assassinate him
7) Dalinar is distraught for not being able to save his brother and goes to the Nightwatcher
8) Amaram forms the Sons of Honor to follow up on what Gavilar said
9) Taravingian either disagrees with Amaram’s plans or was never a part of them and goes himself to the Nightwatcher to also follow up on what Gavilar wanted and tried to save mankind
10) The diagram gets created (my in head explanation for its obscurity is the large amount of events it needed to cover and the limited amount of time he had to do it. Think of it like stenography text and then at the end you have the cipher)
11) Dalinar gets chosen by the Stormfather as a replacement for Gavilar
12) The remainder of the Skybreakers send Halaran to kill Amaram for some reason (maybe to also prevent the return of the Voidbringers)
10, 11 and 12 might happen in any order
To expand a little on my presumed Gavilar’s cabal, I think he told them what he saw, that the Voidbringers will return, that mankind must be united and that the Radiants will have to be reformed to maybe save humanity. After his death I think Amaram focused on the second part, the return of the radiants. He was hoping the common threat of the Voidbringers and their return will prompt the Radiants to also return.
Taravingian went for the unification. (He struck me as more intellectual and les of a believer). So he tried to apply logic to it, went to the Nightwatcher and that ended up with the diagram.
@69 dptullos: I agree that its “success” in Jah Keved is proof that there is some sort of legitimacy behind the brilliance of the Diagram. I personally would require a lot more in the way of proof than we’ve seen before I would consider the mass murder of innocents as an acceptable solution, but I suppose your mileage may vary. :)
@70 VladZ: I could be wrong, but I believe Dalinar visited the Nightwatcher as a result of his wife’s death and not Gavilar’s, which (I believe) would put his visit much earlier than you have it, unless I have mistaken the timing of that death.
@70 VladZ: To nitpick…I’m not sure that we’ve seen Amaram trying to return the Radiants. He’s certainly trying to get the Heralds to come back, but I don’t know how interested he is in Radiants (beyond the power he could gain by being their leader). Actually, does he even know about Kaladin and Shallan being Surgebinders by the end of the book? I think we have yet to see how he reacts…
Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher during the Roshone affair which occurred about 1-2 years prior to the hunting party on the plains and 3 years after his wife death.
The only event his visit seems to correlate with is this day where he nearly assassinate his brother out of jealousy.
I think the proper timeline is Gavilar had his revelations first, and then Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher. Mostly because the way he talked about Gavilar and how he had knowledge of Gavilar having the same (presumably) visions as Dalinar, and everything since, from going to the Nightwatcher to the Diagram, has been in service of that knowledge.
Also, y’know, asking for “capacity to save all of humankind” sounds very much like he was aware of Gavilar’s visions and what Gavilar was interpreting them as (whether that be Odium or a coming Desolation) and very desperately wanted the power to do something.